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SDR
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Joined: 02 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: What are the odds. . . |
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What are the odds that Karl Rove jumped up and high-fived the nearest person in his offfice/bunker/command post, upon hearing that another major city had suffered an al Quaida-type terrorist attack?
Journalist Bob Woodward, interviewed on other matters last evening by Charlie Rose, guessed that the London attack would invigorate George Bush's resolve; it would "add calcium to his spine," Woodward said, in a statement that stopped well short of criticising the administration -- or anyone else -- in the matter of the pursuit of the "war on terror."
SDR
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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And just after the British had announced that they were to withdraw most of their troops from Iraq.
It does not matter who actually organized the strange London bombings.
We all know by now who benefits. We can all name many of the individuals.
What we are waiting for now is for a falling out among the thieves.
Maybe it has already started.
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SDR
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Only the incredulity factor ("it couldn't happen here" -- "no one could be THAT evil, could they -- they're our LEADERS -- they're AMERICANS!") is keeping more people from connecting the dots and seeing the obvious.
As long as there's an easier party to blame ("them godless Muslims" "America-hating liberals") the truth can be avoided and overlooked.
At a recent rural California high-school graduation, where a revived "gay-straight" student alliance organization had made the news, the notorious Phelps family and their fundamentalist "Christian" church organization from Kansas, made a pilgrimage with the intent to picket and disrupt the graduation ceremonies. News photos show the picketers carrying signs saying "God Hates Fags" and "God Hates the USA." I had to have that explained to me; apparently they have "reasoned" that if God permits the existence of homosexuals in the nation, then he must have turned his back on that nation. (These people apparently aren't aware of European or Asian homosexuals -- one thing at a time?) The reporting of the event noted one picketer dragging the national flag in the dirt, apparently as a demonstration of how much God hates the USA -- or something.
My point is that reason and insight have already departed, for a growing portion of the American public. Is this happening elsewhere? Is fundamentalism of one sort or another a growing worldwide phenomenon?
SDR
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting phenomenon - because it is self destructive.
Cut out the middle of the bigotry and what do you have ? Anti-American behaviour.
People like that can give bigotry a bad name.
I do not think that there is the same phenomenon but a variant of it being tried in other places. In Britain - a country with a lengthy and fine culture - the denial of commonsense seems to be causing a sort of identity confusion. Why Blair has not simply been told to get out, I cannot imagine. Yes, there are the bigots who dream of the greatness of Imperial Britain but there cannot be many of them. There are those who hate people with dark skins, etc. but I find it hard to believe that it is so widespread.
What is happening is totally negative - like the bigotry that you describe. It destroys anything and everything that people respect.
Why ? For control. Remember that it is dangerous to oppose these people.
What they have done and continue to do is so bad, so vile, so obscene that it is indeed impossible to accept that they can be what they really are: traitors to their own people.
It is all written down, as with Mein Kampf, in the plan for the new American century. The virulent antisemitism in it is baffling, because it shows that the real fight is between the Israelis and the Neo-Cons.
What are they ? Sort of amateur corporate Nazis. They are five buck boom booms, as the expression has it. You want to change the professional opinion of a Neo Con Judge, or of Tony Blair ? Offer them five bucks - dont bother to pay it, just offer it, and watch them crawl. Point bigots like the Phelps family in the direction that you want and watch them howl and foam at the mouth. They would as willingly turn on Jews or Blacks or Canadians as Gays.
It is no accident that the American designers producing concentration camp designs are Kellogg Brown and Root. They had a particularly stupid CEO who got them involved in the Drexler - have I the correct spelling ? - litigation which got Halliburton and its KBR subsidiary in front of a bankruptcy court. The name of the dimwitted CEO ? We all know that one - he is still on their payroll.
The Neo-Cons, being third rate bullies, picked on weakened and impoverished countries to attack. Not too good to realize that mighty America is losing against the medieval ragtag organisation called the Taleban, is it ?
They actually want chaos. They are desparately trying to push Iraq into a civil war, and I sincerely hope that the Iraqis resist it.
The problem ? The attacks on Syria and Iran are behind schedule.
And there is a design problem. Sleazy third raters have sleazy third rate friends. The mighty US war-profiteering conglomerates who support them are as much piss and wind as the Neo Cons themselves. Their products are not smart. They have left serious gaps in the technology which are being exploited by others.
Problem is that those in the military who support Bush or Blair did not do their lessons at West Point or Annapolis or Sandhurst. Not only are they losing - they do not even know why they are losing; whereas had they at least read von Clausewitz they would have found out. They no more understand von Clausewitz than the Phelps family understand the Holy Bible.
The country that does understand Bush and Blair and reacts correctly ? North Korea.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 1:37 pm Post subject: Give Rove a Pass on this one... |
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I don't think anybody high fived anyone. Tragedy is tragedy. The bigger question is, for me... Are we making more enemies, or are we making more friends, or are these enemies really, really a threat to the whole world?
Maybe Bush is right? Maybe Bush is making things worse? Or is the problem multiplying, like I fear, and we are fueling the insurgency by our aggressive positions?
Nobody high-fived anyone in this, I don't believe.
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SDR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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There are several simultaneous possibilities, among the things you mention, aren't there? And all good questions, I would think. Several seemingly contradictory (or actually contradictory) facts can be operating at the same time, no?
My hypothesized "high-five" was based on the idea (held by some, and with some justification) that the White House, having chosen to pursue a particular course of action with regard to the international terror threat, would be grateful for any occurrence, no matter how regrettable, that bolstered its position or appeared to justify its choices. In this, I was most definitely taking a very cynical view of the current American administration, as exemplified, if not actually led, by Mr Rove.
A tragedy can be co-opted to further a political agenda; it would certainly not be a "first" in the affairs of states, or of men. . .
SDR
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"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Are we making more enemies, or are we making more friends, or are these enemies really, really a threat to the whole world?
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| Quote: | I was in the Marines. I joined in June 2003, and after boot camp in March of 2004 I was sent directly to Iraq. This wasn't at all unsettling to me. You see, I went into the Army because I wanted to fight the bad guys. In school during history classes I learned that the Army and the Marines had done all these wonderful things, and it all sounded so patriotic and I wanted to do the same. I wanted to fight for freedom.
I didn't care, and I still don't care, if I died fighting for a good and noble cause, which is what I wanted to do.
In Iraq, I found myself being the problem instead of the solution. A problem in a normal town, in the life of normal people, like the people here in Toronto, trying to go about their life and risking getting shot at by me. Innocent people getting killed for misunderstandings, and for even more trivial things. I found myself in situations with my partners where we had to shoot at speeding cars, at people that probably were just trying to get out of our way.
All these insurgents, as they call them -- they're not. They're people who have nothing left. There was this guy who was mad at us because we had killed his family. Wife, children; everybody but him had been killed. He was seeking some kind of retribution. That is not an insurgent -- that's a desperate man. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 452
Location: Stamford, Connecticut
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:22 pm Post subject: Excellent replies... |
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The "high five" thought-process might be overstated, but I agree with SDR's "profit" premise and Woodward's comment... "this will put calcium in Bush's spine". And it should.
We have two wars going on here, don't we? And two different enemies. And two different dilemmas. Correct me if I am wrong on this...
The Iraq dilemma seems to be a civil war of sorts, with Sunni's targeted one day, Shia targeted the next, and young GIs in the middle at all times. The stated objective of this "destabilizing war" is "secular violence" within the new Iraqi infrastructure. One journalist noted that "The insurgency seems related to the control of the oil production, who gets what piece of the Iraqi oil pie." (or words to that effect)
The international terror problem seems related to America's (and the West's) support for the Saudi Royal family and the flow of oil.
When America left (or was kicked out) of VietNam, what happened?
Bad things happened initially. Then good things happened. Now they want us back IN THE VERY WORST WAY! The Vietnamese will be the first to tell us... "VietNam won the war, and America won the Peace!"
Do you know how much prestige America gained after LEAVING VietNam?
So nobody is celebrating the tragedy of London, but we have an opportunity now, to do what we should have done 30 years ago.
Declare Victory. We got rid of the bad guy, Saddam. We found no WMD but we found $10 billion of oil money Saddam could have used to buy nukes.
Declare victory. Withdraw. Phase in fuel cell technology and get off fossel fuels. Withdraw support for the Saudi's until they distribute the obscene wealth they have accumulated, among their own people.
Mr. Marine, I read your comments and it horrifies me when you tell me of the position you were placed in... and the fateful decisions you had to make against innocent civilians. Only one rule in life... be true to yourself, God Bless You!
Ed Z
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SDR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm -- That's the horror of being in that Marine's position, isn't it? That he's "signed on" (and now can't change his mind without being court-martialled) while he witnesses, and is forced to participate in, brutalities and even illegal actions he was shielded from seeing, or even hearing of, by a compliant public press, in the months and years leading up to his enlistment. No wonder that today's veterans, like the returning veterans of Viet Nam before them, are suffering mental and emotional problems in startlingly high percentages -- as reported, finally, by mainstream venues like "60 Minutes," which is seen by millions of Americans every week.
Wrong-headed decisions made two wars out of one -- this fact is slowly sinking in, across America. When the other fact -- that the unnecessary war has made the necessary one MUCH more difficult -- finally sinks in, America will be able to change its mind, and possibly change course for the better. As some of us were somehow more ready to sense and recognize these sorry truths, three or more years ago, so now that recognition is, inevitably, spreading. It's only a matter of time. It's been frustratingly obvious, from the beginning, for those with no vested interest in avoiding the facts.
SDR
_________________
"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:23 am Post subject: Marine's way out... in World War 3. |
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First of all, God Bless the soldiers, sailors, Marines, Navy Seals who join up for 10,000 reasons, and then spend the rest of their lives (or give their lives) enduring that experience. I am a Vietnam "era" vet, closest I got was Thailand in 73-74 which was a palace smorgasborg, no action whatsoever.
SDR, of course you also include the 100,000 Iraqi civilian dead and the innocent Iraqis caught up in this mess. Horrifying beyond words, isn't it?
For the Marine, there is a way "back", because I think we need Americans with this sensitivity and humanity, IN AMERICA.
Medical discharges are given to those who "break down" under severe emotional or physical stress. The Marine may take a court martial, fine, and may do jail time, fine. But the bottom line is, this gentleman Marine is not emotionally fit for duty under his current mental state, and should negotiate a return to the custody of the United States and request psychological counseling and court martial... fine, whatever it takes.
Or, on the flip side, stay in Canada which is a wonderful place, maybe better now than the United States!
By the way, after what this gentleman survived, as he described, what kind of human being DOESN'T have emotional scars? Psychopaths?
America needs gentlemen like this who, in being true to themselves, reject the inhumanity and slaughter. You are a different kind of hero in my eyes. God Bless you too, and God Bless those still in uniform.
Mr. Marine, if you want a stateside sponsor, who can escort you to face the music, let it be me! I understand your humanity. I have only come 1000 miles from where you have been, but I understand.
Let me make a confession... I really wanted to go into the Marines, but I knew in my heart, I am not mentally tough enough to have become a marine, and opted out to go Air Force. I was not man enough to be a marine in the first place, and that is the honest to God truth.
A staggering figure gets me deep down, that while America lost 58,000 men in Vietnam, another equal number committed suicide since the war.
And it is probably true of all wars, not just questionable wars.
Meantime, all America prays we catch the scum who set off the bombs in London, and Madrid, and Moscow, and Bali, and Egypt, and Pakistan, and the World Trade Center, and everyday in Iraq.
We can't blame it all on the Bush Administration, not even 5%.
Didn't Clinton's people warn the Bush people about Osama Bin Laden being public enemy #1? Didn't Saddam Hussein finance the Palestinian suicide bombers while Clinton was in office?
I am not a Bush fan, but this is World War 3, with or without Bush.
Ed Z
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Very Gung Ho.
However the likelihood that Turd Blossom high fived anyone he met in the Chickenhawk bunker would appear to be quite high. I understand that Mr Rove outed a US agent in the field so his ethical credentials would appear to be low enough.
The explosives used in London were of a very advanced type. Under four and a half kilogrammes per bomb ? That stuff is powerful.
The London Police are looking for WHITE attackers.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Kevin
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Joined: 13 Apr 2004
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Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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With Bush, and the international greedy corporations and super-rich he actually represents, slouching toward World War 3, I can agree.
Without Bush... hypothetically? Maybe a world-wide New Deal, uniting against the common enemy of our own polution (CO2 etc.) which promises to variously cook, drown, parch, or blow us away. There's plenty of real work to do. |
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Ed Ziomek
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: |
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To all: 20 years ago, one person told me that we were entering a phase of overpopulation, dwindling resources, and the diminishment of the individual.
Sort of a "population bomb" meets corporate anarchy.
Possibly that is what World War 3 is... Politics is not the issue (which can be used as an excuse), Religion is not the issue (which is used as an excuse by all sides), but resources and money and power, that is the end-game.
Maybe that is what this world war is all about... "Have -power/money", versus the "have nots -power/money". Its not Bush, its not Rove, its not Hussein, its not "Democracy", its not even Islam or Palestine.
The world has become over-crowded in one cultural sense, and over-dependent on one single resource... oil!
Take away America's daily need for 13 million barrels of oil from the Saudi's, would the World Trade Center have happened? Would the London tragedy have happened? Or Bali? Or Moscow? Or Madrid? Or Kenya? Or Somalia?
Nobody, nobody is feeling good about London. Only terrorists. Everybody else loses for now, but I truly believe goodness will prevail.
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SDR
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I hope you're right. . .and I agree with your description of the overall situation.
SDR
_________________
"I'm the commander . . . see, I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being the president. Maybe somebody needs to explain to me why they say something, but I don't feel like I owe anybody an explanation." GWB |
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Richard Haut
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| Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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at the moment there is enough oil.
therefore, America - foreseeing a growing shortage and over-dependence - obviously needed to do two things. Firstly to secure long-term reliable relations with major oil producers, and secondly to actively develop alternatives to reduce its massive over-dependence not merely on oil, but on a single strategic resource.
it had the status, the influence and the money to do that.
instead, Bush has done something quite different. He has tried to seize and control the market, to monopolize it by force and deception, and does not even seem to be aware of the idea of reducing oil dependence.
he has antagonized some of Americas oldest allies, notably including oil producers, and is failing to control even the crushed nations already attacked. Besides giving the bin Ladens of the world the biggest publicity boost that they could have dreamt of, he has also given them, and all those subjected to Bushs barbarity and threats, their real long-term target: oil supplies.
oil burns, folks.
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Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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