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Kevin Matthews
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 520
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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 Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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LEED is bad news... internationalizing the green movement into a checklist... its going to become the downfall of it all
but thumbs up for the spread of green design and trying... especially in india which is going to be a battle ground for environmental issues and they continue to grow |
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Kenneth Martin
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Thornton Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:29 am Post subject: |
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Green alone is rich. Green mixed with Brown is obnoxious. In our work, let us focus our minds on the mix. Where buildings are a part of the built environment it is justly prudent to consider transportation as vital to a more complete response to the concern of environment. Where we think in mutual terms, our solutions are righted, respectively. Contrarily, building solutions with little regard to "environmental context" stand with criterial arms to their sides. Reach further the creativity of Design to embrace fully our environmental future.
On Urbanity...
"As growth has it, we cannot escape the ebb and flow of the urban context in relation to sprawl. Edge cities are beckoning for identification that reflects of and compliments their original/subsequent founding.
Thus, among the highest of concerns for the edge city is the inter-modal linking to other urban forms, most importantly to their father city form. An "Of the Age" subject, transportation and the urban form is a high priority subject and worthy of advanced consideration of application - theory, understanding, planning and incorporation."
...from Kenneth E. Martin, AIA to Robert Schmid, of the Urban Design Committee, AIA Colorado, on July 26, 2002.
KENNETH E. MARTIN, ARCHITECT
997 EAST 132ND DRIVE
HUNTERS GLEN
THORNTON COLORADO 80241 . USA
http://home.earthlink.net/~swbr-co/index.html
_________________
Kenneth E. Martin, AIA, CSI
Architect NY MO WI MN CO |
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Kevin
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 1138
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Architorture wrote: | | LEED is bad news... |
Oh really? Based on what? Of course the LEED certification system is not perfect. Nor does it tell architects how to design a building!
In the real world, there is a very serious problem with "greenwashing", where one or two green-type features will be tacked on to an otherwise-conventionally environmentally-damaging building.
A flexible, menu-of-options points-based certification system like LEED provides an independent basis for sorting out the really environmentally sensitive projects from those which merely want to act the part.
Far from becoming "a downfall", this kind of mechanism seems essential for maintaining the technical integrity of the movement. |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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i see what you are saying...
but i think that LEED disregards one of the basic issues in green thought... that somehow the building should be of the place. that we can't simply think of environment as being this really big issue like global warming... that there is also the immediate environment in which the building exists...
i guess its the more hollistic part of green...
once you introduce a check list you remove the hollistic... b/c now you have points, the number of which you know need to get a certain certification....but in the end if i'm a gold or platinum or whatever level LEED building i still might not be as environmentally friendly as building that would recieve a lesser rating....
things like walls dividing copy machines to deaden sound in a library get more points for a building... and yet no one says... well how much energy did i spend to put in those walls and are they even necessary....
i know of a specific situation where such a thing was done JUST TO GET POINTS and the plan is to remove the structure once the certification process is done b/c it is actually inconvenient...
there is more to green architecture than the technical side... i think by introducing a rewards program that will most likely just be exploited for tax relief or publicity disregards alot that has gone into the development of the green movement |
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Kevin
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 1138
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think LEED certification is intended to summarize the total value or aesthetic quality of a building.
"That somehow the building should be of the place" is an important value to consider, but only fractionally as an aspect of 'green architecture'. Contextual considerations greatly pre-date the current sustainable design movement.
In my own published case studies of green buildings, I cover most of the characteristics directly addressed in the LEED system, and I also cover other characteristics I think are important that are not in LEED. Any sophisticated observer should do the same.
Meanwhile, LEED is continually being tuned to account with reasonable balance for a full range of good green moves. It takes more green moves into account with each revision, allowing greater flexibilty in reaching a high score. Honestly, it seems like a very creditable effort!
Is it a fault of the LEED system if a designer and/or owner are so craven and hypocritical as to cheat? In fact, in the face of grossly unethical behavior, I believe it is a matter of professional ethics to blow the whistle, even at some personal risk.
No system is so perfect as to work without the diligence of the people who work with it.
A high LEED score suggests that a building is technically-speaking likely to fairly green.
No more... and no less! |
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Architorture
millennium club
Joined: 31 Jul 2004
Posts: 1376
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| Posted: Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:33 am Post subject: |
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i understand what you are saying, and it is valid... leed is a good idea, i guess i just fear where it might end up going as it becomes more popular.
the checklist points system seems far too easily exploited... and i know are plans to have 're-certification' programs or updates in order to make sure buildings actually perform the way in which they claimed in the beginning...
i mean my closest knowledge of a LEED building is actually the new architecture building being built here at PSU. it is supposed to be getting a pretty high rating when it is all done... but some of the things that have been done in the name of LEED are just ridiculous... |
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leini
Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 13
Location: India
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 7:40 am Post subject: |
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i am from hyderabad, india, the city where the new platinum rated building is located. the organization that occupies the building also recently conducted an international conference on green architecture.
i am not a LEED sceptic, but i did have a few doubts at the end of it all.
the building in hyderabad, and the one in chesapeake bay seem rather small scale (without any clearly apparent methods for future expansion), and i really don't see how the SAME degree of sustainability and eco-friendliness can be achieved in larger commercial establishments. think about it, how many commercial buildings would you have in the states that are only two stories high (as is the building in chesapeake bay). however this "movement", if one can call it that, is probably still in its infancy stages.
as for the adverse effects of the increasing popularity of LEED, i think the whole idea of LEED is to increase its popularity! at least, going by the heavy marketing they have begun to do in industry related sectors, seems to suggest that. i think the basic theory behind it is that some environment-consiousness is better than none. |
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Kenneth Martin
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Thornton Colorado
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 6:30 pm Post subject: leed [torquiture] %-)... |
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leini and architorture make some interesting points and valuation is necessary to validate processes and acheivement, though always let the conception of LEED be the guide to implementation. as it evolves, that it can become an inclusive, accessible and integrated welcome mat for 'out of the box' linking to all built environment...
ncarb has taken on licensure across the usa ... works.
aia calls for continuing education ... works.
architectural firms know how to manage interns ... works.
the automobile is our mode of transportation for ages to come ... works.
all the above are in place and working. could they improve? maybe. the real question is, can they? often the concept to make good resolve or solution to a need is mudified and cast into requisite - CODE. resultant is a book that is introduced as precedent to design. in cases, the book precludes thought, concept, creativity, solution. often, mere code becomes the solution.
i believe the spirit of the leed effort, even in this small on-line conference, is and should remain very open-minded. i appreciate this and know that leedership resides in the voices i read. what exemplifies truth in understanding, will be our direct and open earnestness in application to reslolving this world-shared problem, well beyond the criterium that registers accomplishment.
it starts and ends with | Quote: | | i breath your breath mentality |
...
thank you
_________________
Kenneth E. Martin, AIA, CSI
Architect NY MO WI MN CO |
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RJ
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:01 pm Post subject: LEEDing green in India |
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All replies to this article make interesting points. One idea that the article brings out is the validity of traditional architectural principles. Human civilization has always made architecture that was sustainable, until the advent of industrial mass manufacturing processes. The article tells us to retrieve architectural principles of the past to achieve our objectives today, not because of any nostalgic sensibilities, but because there seems to be something useful about our past (in many cultures) which we lost in our quest for modernity. All of us must try to use such principles of the past in conjunction with today's technology in our architecture for, this building shows us that despite all arguments about how technology today enables us to do this and that without regard to the past, it is the past that not only puts us in perspective, but also makes sense considering our damaged Earth.
LEED will be with us for a long time. There are views and counterviews about LEED serving corporate interests; making green architecture a postulation or a checklist rather than a holistic idea; having random banchmarks; and so on. Every framework will evolve based upon views like yours. LEED is, therefore,already going into its version 2.1 and I am hoping that it will address some of your concerns. The CII-Godrej GBC is trying to make an India-specific framework considering LEED is designed for American realities. The need of the hour is such regional or country-specific efforts that address their own realities. And these realities, in my opiniojn, should encourage the use of ideas of the past that can be used today for our benefit. We will, then, be able to retain our cultural identity too. Cheers! |
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Kenneth Martin
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Thornton Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:33 am Post subject: Perspective |
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Thanks RJ.
On the evolution of concern, as played out in the development and application of LEED, I especially like this historic archival viewpoint / perspective.
There is foundation and truth in designs of past civilizations - breathing the air we breath today... composition is a bit altered today, though the general (proven) content is the same. So should be our understanding of the built environment and our professional applications of concern.
As we foster our own conscientiousness of environment and render effort to apply modes of concern in our practice, there are other issues to consider. How do we educate our world, in a caring way, such that our work is compensated, justly. Or is our work, incorporating LEED, a sideline benefit, or gift back to the world in return for our own missuse? The guilt complex.
Are LEED fees outlined by value to the environment or value to the client? How many commissions can we expect to take with additional fees that cover the overhead of seminars, training, materials and general non-billable time dedicated to this cause? In many US States there is an energy code, wherein calculations are to accompany submittals to the jurisdiction, showing energy saving design. The fee rate is relatively the same from Wisconsin, which has an energy code, to Colorado, which does not have an energy code to speak of. There appears not to be an increase in fees for additional work in calculating energy saving solutions into design in Wisconsin.
Will our profession show LEED compensation charting that justifies value in relation to overall fees? Respectively, will clients walk away from the opportunity of LEED design, based on the added cost? And as the world environmental health continues to decline, will jurisdictional CODE have to step in to mandate LEED application in design?
All are worthy questions. It seems to me that added value is worth added compensation. If this concern remains unaddressed the answer will be written by the general public - same people that are working on maintaining the problem! And compensation will not be realized.
Let's be proactive in setting standard compensation charting for LEED applications in design. There should be no question as to the ultimate value. Then, the concern is helping / making the public subscribe. code?
_________________
Kenneth E. Martin, AIA, CSI
Architect NY MO WI MN CO |
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RJ
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 6:31 am Post subject: Leeding green in India |
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| You raise a valid point, Kenneth Martin. While the architect puts in a lot of effort in trying to certify with LEED, the client benefits in savings of running cost. Just compensation must, without doubt, be a requirement. It would be appropriate if LEED makes it a compulsion on clients seeking its certification to compensate the additional manhours. If not, one might have to go around LEED to activate the mighty "market forces" by making LEED certification a money saving proposition, if the government is convinced to provide tax incentives to certified buildings. Until then, all that you said remains a concern. |
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Kevin
Site Admin
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 1138
Location: Eugene, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Regarding design and ownership costs and rewards, Savings by Design:
http://www.SavingsbyDesign.com
is an example of an innovative program in California that provides both design assistance, and cash incentives, for design of highly-energy-efficient large scale buildings. It's one of the few conservation incentive programs I know of that actually includes extra monentary rewards to the design team as part of the mix.
The program is funded by energy rate payers, through the public utilities companies in the area, who realize lower costs because such leveraged subsidy of conservation is greatly cheaper than building new power plant capacity. Savings by Design is one of a variety of conservation programs the utilities have created in response to flexible government mandates provided in California for innovative, cost-effective conservation.
Energy savings is only one component of green architecture - and the energy realm has the benefit that it's relatively easy to calculate direct dollar savings from conservation measures - but it is a very important component, with extreme repercussions, as well!
BTW, with support that includes some from Savings by Design, we're producing a set of case studies of new green and energy efficient buildings in California:
http://www.greatbuildings.com/types/geeb.html
These studies cover a range of building sizes, types, and structural systems, and include examples of adaptive reuse as well as new construction. |
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leini
Joined: 26 Sep 2004
Posts: 13
Location: India
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 10:55 am Post subject: |
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reverting back to the use of traditional architectural principles in modern day structures.......one example of such work is taking place in Auroville, India. this is an interesting case of a completely pedestrianized society with eco-friendly arhcitecture based on traditional indian construction techniques. it is quite well documented and worth a read. what's interesting about it is that it a a conscious effort to establish a pollution free, peaceful environment. the basic philosophy of auroville is one of universal harmony. the city doesn't belong to any one in particular and people from all over the world come to visit and to reside.
www.auroville.org |
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RJ
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: LEEDing Green in India |
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| Great example, Leini! Auroville is proof of how we can live in the present, past and future all at the same time. It is demonstrative of humane, spiritual, sustainable, low-cost and experimental architecture. But mostly, it is optimistic about the future of our Earth. Another example is the "Barefoot Architects" in Rajasthan, India,which won the United Nations award for a sustainable and low-cost initiative that empowers people by developing self-reliance methods and enabling them to be less dependent upon external utility companies. Is there anybody who knows more than my cursory knowledge of that community? |
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