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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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 Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| djswan wrote: | | ArchiMotion wrote: | | djswan wrote: | | In God I don't trust. |
So go ahead and throw out the Constitution. Who cares. |
Freedom from religion is in there too, and that's my religion.
Eat shitake mushrooms and digress.  |
Just as at one time there was a need of
SEPARATION BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE STATE
now we have a need for a
SEPARATION BETWEEN SCIENCE AND THE STATE
The State should not become the advocate of science, nor more then it should of religion. This is what is happening in American now and in these forums, which are becoming the advocate of the science of general evolution. I have already stated I am not against evolution, but against the general modern versions we are seeing today in society, and as well the suppression of individual freedom of choice by the higher order of government, of institutions, of forums, of blogs, of the media, in essence, this forum is only a sort of a micro-cosmos of a much bigger problem going on - when the state and power systems attempt to dictate the science that we should accept as science, as determined by the State and power structures. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Like I accused, "they will do anything to get you to believe them"
and I rest my case.
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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| djswan wrote: | Like I accused, "they will do anything to get you to believe them"
and I rest my case. |
So do I. |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1731
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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I did some more research on DeYoung
The is from Grace.edu
http://www.grace.edu/academics/undergrad/math.php
b i o g r a p h y
Dr. Don DeYoung is Professor of Physics
and Chair of the Physical Science Department
He joined the Grace College faculty in 1972. He
is known internationally for his work in creation
science, is president of the Creation Research
Society, author of 15 books on Bible-science topics,
and well known as a creation science speaker.
Dr. DeYoung earned his A.S. degree from Grand
Rapids Junior College, B.S. and M.S. degrees from
Michigan Technological University, M.Div. from
Grace Theological Seminary, and Ph.D. degree
from Iowa State University.
OK, it looks like he may have a BS,MS And phD in something but no mention of astrophysics
Six Scientific Evidences for Creation
The universe is governed by basic unchanging laws of gravity, motion,
light, etc. These laws cannot somehow arise slowly by mutation or
natural selection. They have been established since the beginning of
time. Each law bears testimony to a carefully planned creation.
The two most basic laws discovered in nature both involve energy. The
first law states that energy is conserved or constant. Energy takes various forms but can be neither created nor destroyed. This law was established at the completion of the creation week when the Creator ceased the input of energy into the physical universe from his infinite reserves.
The second basic law describes unavoidable losses whenever energy
is dealt with. The energy does not disappear but becomes unavailable.
Stated more broadly, all things (including people!) wear out over
time. Ultimately, death itself is part of this second law, which is clearly
connected with the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3.
The fossil record does not reveal unlimited changes in living things over
a vast time scale. Instead, the fossils show separate created categories of
plants and animals, many now extinct. And very few fossils are forming
today. The great majority resulted from the global deluge of Noah’s day.
The origin of life remains a fundamental “unsolved mystery.” None of
the explanations for life’s start, either from chemicals in the sea or from
space, are convincing. Actually, scientists cannot agree on the natural
origin of anything, whether life, the moon, or stars. Meanwhile, creation
ex nihilo, from nothing, remains as a refreshing alternative to endless
speculation.
We are surrounded by incredible design in nature. Even in the fallen
world we are surrounded by beauty, patterns, symmetry, and order. The
current “Intelligent Design Movement” shows that complex items such
as the eye or a living cell could never arise by chance. Romans 1:20
further reminds us that there is no valid excuse for disregarding this clear
evidence of the Creator’s work.
Four Tenets of Young-Earth Creation
The creation week as described in Genesis 1-2 was literal history with
24-hour days. This was the origin of our present-day calendar.
The Garden of Eden, our first parents Adam and Eve, the earth, and the
universe beyond were established fully functioning with an appearance
of maturity.
Creation took place thousands of years ago, not billions of years.
The Genesis Flood was global in extent and this water judgment
reshaped the entire surface of the earth.
_________________
Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1731
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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Fun: God made the Earth and everything in it fully formed just like we see it today 10,000 years ago and you can't prove otherwise
Sci: This is true. If you have a God in your equation that can do anything I can't prove that you don't
Nut: We don't exist, We are just thoughts in Gods head and you can't prove otherwise
Sci: This is also true
Fun: If you say you can't deny this than why can't I teach it?
Sci: you can, go get a job at Grace college
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Chris Stewart
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1731
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Nut: wait a minute, can I teach my beliefs equally?
Sci: no, because you are full of it.
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Chris Stewart
Modern Texas Home Project |
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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | I did some more research on DeYoung
The is from Grace.edu
http://www.grace.edu/academics/undergrad/math.php
b i o g r a p h y
Dr. Don DeYoung is Professor of Physics
and Chair of the Physical Science Department
He joined the Grace College faculty in 1972. He
is known internationally for his work in creation
science, is president of the Creation Research
Society, author of 15 books on Bible-science topics,
and well known as a creation science speaker.
Dr. DeYoung earned his A.S. degree from Grand
Rapids Junior College, B.S. and M.S. degrees from
Michigan Technological University, M.Div. from
Grace Theological Seminary, and Ph.D. degree
from Iowa State University.
OK, it looks like he may have a BS,MS And phD in something but no mention of astrophysics
Six Scientific Evidences for Creation
The universe is governed by basic unchanging laws of gravity, motion,
light, etc. These laws cannot somehow arise slowly by mutation or
natural selection. They have been established since the beginning of
time. Each law bears testimony to a carefully planned creation.
The two most basic laws discovered in nature both involve energy. The
first law states that energy is conserved or constant. Energy takes various forms but can be neither created nor destroyed. This law was established at the completion of the creation week when the Creator ceased the input of energy into the physical universe from his infinite reserves.
The second basic law describes unavoidable losses whenever energy
is dealt with. The energy does not disappear but becomes unavailable.
Stated more broadly, all things (including people!) wear out over
time. Ultimately, death itself is part of this second law, which is clearly
connected with the Fall of mankind in Genesis 3.
The fossil record does not reveal unlimited changes in living things over
a vast time scale. Instead, the fossils show separate created categories of
plants and animals, many now extinct. And very few fossils are forming
today. The great majority resulted from the global deluge of Noah’s day.
The origin of life remains a fundamental “unsolved mystery.” None of
the explanations for life’s start, either from chemicals in the sea or from
space, are convincing. Actually, scientists cannot agree on the natural
origin of anything, whether life, the moon, or stars. Meanwhile, creation
ex nihilo, from nothing, remains as a refreshing alternative to endless
speculation.
We are surrounded by incredible design in nature. Even in the fallen
world we are surrounded by beauty, patterns, symmetry, and order. The
current “Intelligent Design Movement” shows that complex items such
as the eye or a living cell could never arise by chance. Romans 1:20
further reminds us that there is no valid excuse for disregarding this clear
evidence of the Creator’s work.
Four Tenets of Young-Earth Creation
The creation week as described in Genesis 1-2 was literal history with
24-hour days. This was the origin of our present-day calendar.
The Garden of Eden, our first parents Adam and Eve, the earth, and the
universe beyond were established fully functioning with an appearance
of maturity.
Creation took place thousands of years ago, not billions of years.
The Genesis Flood was global in extent and this water judgment
reshaped the entire surface of the earth. |
See, see things start to add up when one begins to investigate, rather then make false accusations.
Then why is my thread being edited, I am being mis-quoted, my links are being banned and called religious spam and bogus pseudo-science and the like?
It is as I stated:
Just as at one time there was a need of
SEPARATION BETWEEN THE CHURCH AND THE STATE
now we have a need for a
SEPARATION BETWEEN SCIENCE AND THE STATE
The State should not become the advocate of science, nor more then it should of religion. This is what is happening in American now and in these forums, which are becoming the advocate of the science of general evolution. (With members or proponents of Creationism being harassed, accused, treated as second class citizens, and are being prohibited from posting their links, bringing forth their arguments, and continuing in a free discussion without all their posts, links and threads being either edited, their links being called bogus pseudo-science, and their faith being called heresity against the system? What type of system do we have in American, when individual choice and expression is being removed in favor of what is more "politically correct"? I have already stated I am not against evolution, but against the general modern versions we are seeing today in society, and as well the suppression of individual freedom of choice by the higher order of government, of institutions, of forums, of blogs, of the media, in essence, this forum is only a sort of a micro-cosmos of a much bigger problem going on - when the state and power systems attempt to dictate the science that we should accept as science, as determined by the State and power structures.
Now, as explained, there are literalists, and there are those who have a more open mind to consider that the days could be periods in time, rather then literal days. We do not cease to propose Scientific C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-m as science, simply because some authorities of the government or the system or educational systems come and tell us it is not, and proceed to attempt to remove our freedom by banning the teaching of this in our schools, in the media, in online forums, blobs, publications, science magazines and every other place where this same type of governmental and institutional intervention is taking place, squashing the right of free speech and choice. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'm glad he rested and is ready to go again
Do you serve god, archi?
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1731
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think you would be better off just sticking to the science and leaving out the evangelizing.
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Modern Texas Home Project |
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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: God made the Earth and everything in if fully, not just as we see it today, as it has undergone limited evolution, mutation, adaptation of the species as part of God's programmed design and plan. The earth is not only 10,000 years old, but could be millions of years old, since not every c-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t adopts a literal interpretatoin of the age of the universe. |
Secular Sci: This is true. If you have a God in your equation He can do anything and I then admit I wil l never be able to explain it all then, since there are soo many contradictory hypothesis.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: Some think they don't exist, and are just fragments of their imagination. What do you have to say about this? |
Secular Sci: These are the obvious nutcases who will not listen to science.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: I agree. These nutcases are trying to subvert this thread and get everything off subject. |
Secular Sci: Yes, that is quite obvious. But what more could you expect of them, since their are nutcases?
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: That is true. So settign aside the nuts, what do you think of my science I have presented? |
Secular Sci: It is pretty sound as far as I can see. The only thing you seem to dis-agree with is our radioactive dating techniques, the age of the earth and the existance of a God to start the whole process.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Yes, we have much evidence to demonstrate the world may be older then 10,000 years in fact, even from the Grand Canyon we can see this. But certainly it cannot be 4 billion years old, from the tons of info we have to demonstrate this. The moon is only one disputed example. |
Secular Sci: Yes, science has not been able to resolve this problem on the moon dislocation phenomena yet, so there are still bugs in the system.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Well, just as long as we don't take those bugs to bed with us I guess we will get along ok. |
Secular Sci: Ha, that is a good one. I guess, if I am an open minded scientist, I should expect to get along well with other points of view from other scientists who also have just as much education as I do.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Well, thank you for your time and sorry again about all the people around here who are giving both you guys and us a bad name. |
Secular Sci: Don't worry about it. Time will prove them wrong. We live in a democracy, so any attempt to squash science, whether it is your point of view, or ours, will be revealed to be a system of control and this cannot survive under a true democracy.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t I couldn't have said it better then you. Thanks again. |
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | | I think you would be better off just sticking to the science and leaving out the evangelizing. |
True, but I wanted see what he served.
If you get an answer, use it how you will.
I have more question too. Should I lay off a bit?
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djswan
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 654
Location: Montana, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| ArchiMotion wrote: | | Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: God made the Earth and everything in if fully, not just as we see it today, as it has undergone limited evolution, mutation, adaptation of the species as part of God's programmed design and plan. The earth is not only 10,000 years old, but could be millions of years old, since not every c-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t adopts a literal interpretatoin of the age of the universe. |
Secular Sci: This is true. If you have a God in your equation He can do anything and I then admit I wil l never be able to explain it all then, since there are soo many contradictory hypothesis.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: Some think they don't exist, and are just fragments of their imagination. What do you have to say about this? |
Secular Sci: These are the obvious nutcases who will not listen to science.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: I agree. These nutcases are trying to subvert this thread and get everything off subject. |
Secular Sci: Yes, that is quite obvious. But what more could you expect of them, since their are nutcases?
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t: That is true. So settign aside the nuts, what do you think of my science I have presented? |
Secular Sci: It is pretty sound as far as I can see. The only thing you seem to dis-agree with is our radioactive dating techniques, the age of the earth and the existance of a God to start the whole process.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Yes, we have much evidence to demonstrate the world may be older then 10,000 years in fact, even from the Grand Canyon we can see this. But certainly it cannot be 4 billion years old, from the tons of info we have to demonstrate this. The moon is only one disputed example. |
Secular Sci: Yes, science has not been able to resolve this problem on the moon dislocation phenomena yet, so there are still bugs in the system.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Well, just as long as we don't take those bugs to bed with us I guess we will get along ok. |
Secular Sci: Ha, that is a good one. I guess, if I am an open minded scientist, I should expect to get along well with other points of view from other scientists who also have just as much education as I do.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t Well, thank you for your time and sorry again about all the people around here who are giving both you guys and us a bad name. |
Secular Sci: Don't worry about it. Time will prove them wrong. We live in a democracy, so any attempt to squash science, whether it is your point of view, or ours, will be revealed to be a system of control and this cannot survive under a true democracy.
| Quote: | | C-r-e-a-t-i-o-n-i-s-t S-c-i-e-n-t-i-s-t I couldn't have said it better then you. Thanks again. |
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he served up a bunch of his own self interest.
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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| djswan wrote: | I'm glad he rested and is ready to go again
Do you serve god, archi? |
No man is perfect. We are all subject to error and maybe at times we do something we must ask for forgiveness.
But certainly to serve God is much better then to serve the State, corporate interest, some false dogma of evolution or humanism, or even worse, some inner voice of error, as many are doing around these regions of cyber-space.
If one's mind is free, then it cannot be tied down by the threat of force, neither from a government of from individual men. The basic premise of our Constitution guarantees certainly basic concepts of freedom, and when these begin to be violated, and the voice of freedom is being squashed, then what is the result? Control, oppression, removal of freedom of speech, torture, executions, and the worst nightmares of humanity, as seen in Hitler and ex radical leftist governments of the past who enchained, killed, and incarcerated thousands for their faith, belief systems and desire for freedom of soul and of mind.
When the system starts to dictate to us what is acceptable science and what is not, it has gone beyond it's duty to protect and maintain the freedom of it's people, and, using it's power, is now abusing of it's authority, by imposing on it's people what they should or not accept as valid science. |
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csintexas
millennium club
Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 1731
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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The exact time anything takes is irrelevant.
We know that it took as long as it took.
We Know it is greater than 0
Other than that time is relativistic.
We are only really concerned with the process of existence. Time is just an interesting side note.
What does billions of years mean to us anyway?
I just did an interesting math:
the moon is 238,857 miles from earth
approximately 1.8 billion inches
the moon is currently pulling away at 1.5 inches per year
So if we just use this information to make a logical deduction we can see the Moon could not be more than 1.2 billion years old
the problem with this simplistic math is:
| Quote: | | The exact rate of the Moon's movement away from Earth has varied a lot over time. It depends both on the distance between the Earth and the Moon, and the exact shape of the Earth. The details of continents and oceans moving around on Earth actually change the rate, which make it a very hard thing to estimate. The rate is currently slowing down slightly, and it is estimated that in about 15 billion years the Moon's orbit will stop increasing in size. |
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ArchiMotion
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 315
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| csintexas wrote: | A conversation between a fundamentalist and a nutcase:
Fun: God created life, this has to be so because it is all so complicated
Nut: We don't exist this is all an illusion
Fun: I think therefor I am
Nut: You only think you think because you are fooling yourself
Fun: That doesn't make since.
Nut: who said we had to make since?
Fun: what is the point of trying to discover anything about the nature of life if nothing makes since?
Nut: ban science, it is all an illusion anyway
Fun: but with science I can prove God exists
Nut: Nothing exists, if you where not fooling yourself you would see that.
Fun: but I can see existence right in front of my face
Nut: you are looking in mirrors
Fun: you are crazy
Nut: what is your point?
Fun: if we do not use physical evidence for our claims we could go o like this forever
Nut: this is fun, it keeps me amused |
| Quote: | | Djswan: he served up a bunch of his own self interest. |
Who is serving who's interest by the way, when Cre-at-ion-ist S-c-ie-n-tis-t is substituted for "Creationist Oxymoron" in my last joke?
Common, give me a break. Can't anyone around here take a joke without having to re-tell the joke in a "politically correct manner"? Where do these mandates proceed from, Washington, Uncle Sam or something like that? You mean we got Capital hill scrambling now and afraid of ArchiMotion?
Good, I think if we can rattle their cages just a little maybe our freedom of speech will be respected. |
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