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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Nice one SDR -->> SDR --->> ["We have a need. We create a form that can carry out the function of fulfilling that need. So: form follows need. function follows form."] Nice one SDR! We are making progress in demonstrating how there is a forward/reverse relationship between Form and Function. Now we can see we have clearly forever dispelled the myth that "Form Follows Function".
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SDR millennium club Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 1716 Location: San Francisco	Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:42 pm    Post subject: Yes -- I think I like Mr Wilson's rather straight take on the subject. Here is the source of that one: http://www.designaddict.com/design_addict/forums/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread_show_one/thread_id/6272/ SDR
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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:51 pm    Post subject: I can read other's thoughts Hey, I like this ! It is like everything I am saying, you guys are posting in another forum, without me knowing it! Now am I good at reading thoughts or what ? --->> Evidence of my being able to read the thoughts of your discussion ---->>(Without ever haven seen it, only now) ---->> Quote: ["Form follows function ? Other fora have fun with this old saw; why shouldn't we ? To start; Vincent van Gogh: "Dear Theo, Will life never treat me decently? I am wracked by despair! My head is pounding! Mrs. Sol Schwimmer is suing me because I made her bridge as I felt it and not to fit her ridiculous mouth! That's right! I can't work to order like a common tradesman! I decided her bridge should be enormous and billowing, with wild, explosive teeth flaring up in every direction like fire! Now she is upset because it won't fit in her mouth! She is so bourgeois and stupid, I want to smash her! I tried forcing the false plate in but it sticks out like a star burst chandelier. Still, I find it beautiful. She claims she can't chew! What do I care whether she can chew or not! Theo, I can't go on like this much longer! (...) - Vincent" From Woody Allen's ?If the Impressionists Had Been Dentists: A fantasy exploring the transposition of temperament." http://www.geocities.com/Athens/2360/jm-eng.fff-hai.html 05-Jun-08 SDR Unfortunately, I have nothing to add at this juncture, but that's hilarious. I love it. posted by whitespike The caveat at the bottom of the page linked above is particularly useful, all by itself, I think. 06-Jun-08 Form cannot possibly follow function, because... without form there could be no function. Its always been a misleading oversimplification of design. posted by dcwilson 06-Jun-08 I agree with the statement of... oversimplifications and how badly they serve the inherent complexity of design. But you have to explain the statement that there is no function without form... The function of washing clothes, or the function of grinding coffee has had many differnts forms over the years and some will probably be added. But the function itself, without the form exists...or would that be called a need rather than a function? 06-Jun-08 The whole thing is fraught with semantic difficulties. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg, the form or the function ? posted by SDR 06-Jun-08 That's why... Woody Allen's parody on Vincent's letters to his brother Theo is a welcomed relief? Thanks SDR for bringing back Jan Michl's text. He is a very good teacher, not only to his students in Oslo, but to all of us. The whole discussion on the variety of functions that a product embodies, how they shift over time is the most important one we can have on design. posted by koen 06-Jun-08 'Other fora have fun with this old saw; why shouldn't we ?' now that is funny. And all of it exhausting... Puts me in an 'art for art's sake' mood. posted by rockland 06-Jun-08 It does beg the question.... It does beg the question. And push come to shove, I'd say most believe the chicken before the egg, but that doesn't mean they should not believe in the egg. posted by hudsonhonu 07-Jun-08 Koen et al... To clarify my thought, I will take the coffee grinder example. Coffee does not grind itself. Coffee is just coffee without a grinder. A grinder is a form that carries out a function. Take away the form of the coffee grinder and there can be no function of grinding. There can only be a need to grind. We need the shelter that a house provides. The house is a form that provides the function of shelter. If there is no house ( i.e., no form), then there is no function of shelter. To elaborate, we have a need to go places. We can choose smong serveral forms of transportation that give us corresponding functions of going places. Without these forms of transportation, there are no functions of going places--only needs to go places. We have a need. We create a form that can carry out the function of fulfilling that need. So: form follows need. function follows form. posted by dcwilson"] You see? We humans posses an incredible power and potential of mental kinectic energy thus far unknown my science and by most mortals. Come on you guys, everything is connected!
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:50 am    Post subject: I haven't had my coffee yet to study this further. I need coffee or do I? Needs sound pathetic and small. I like requirements. Reading the first and last lines helps, thanks for that advise. How to make a universe. There is more than one way, but here is one. Take two events and make a pattern. You now have a two dimensions x(y), and a place for form to exist. Functions are the varibles. Form is the outcome. You need input to have outcome. Add a zenith and you get Earth, Wind and Fire. and gravity as the pull back from the zenith event and time is the markings of it's trail. Will an astro physicist please take the stage and a poet. Am I close? _________________ n/a
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csintexas millennium club Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 1919 Location: USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:15 am    Post subject: I don't think anyone has seriously disputed the Chicken and egg question since genetics became widely understood. Ever since two or more molecules came together and formed life or for religious people, since God created the first life form, the egg has come first. In the original creation nothing proceeded it. A need is a function in my way of thinking. The need to grind coffee is a function only unrealized without some means to grind it. I can see that anyone making this distinction between need and function would have trouble comprehending FFF. Function is the things we need something to do. (This is where our brains come in handy.) We need a car to get good gas mileage because we realize that we have a limited supply of oil. We don't design a car that by accident gets good gas mileage and then realize "hey, this will be a good function, what a fortunate accident" _________________ Chris Stewart Modern Texas Home Project
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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:54 am    Post subject: The way I see it is that there is a need, and the function of the building is to serve that need. Therefore, function serves need, so need takes precedence. Therefore, we have need first --->> The need generates a desired function, to satisfy the human need ---->>> This function generates a Form to satisfy that need, and to serve a function. When that need is no longer present, and thus the function changes, such as a changing use of a building, the form now serves a new function. This new function must conform to the pre-established form, or the needs will not be met. So this demonstrates how there is a complete inter-dependency between Need - Function - Form, not a sequential relationship. This again dispels the myth that form follows function.
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: I thought you "folks" told me a problem was #1, now it's a need, let me guess tommorrow it's power and you want more of it. and form follows function. _________________ n/a
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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:23 pm    Post subject: How is a "problem" formulated in design? One considers the needs, the project goals, the aspirations, and of course, if you are designing for a Dubai Shake, the "Power" desired. If they want more of it, you need to incorporate this into your new needs, and achieve a form that will serve this function as well -->> to give them more power and prestige. Give me power, I want more of it.
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:30 pm    Post subject: I would highly suggest you search that topic out for yourself on this wonderful forum. You find your birds of feather. _________________ n/a
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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:42 pm    Post subject: Thanks for the suggestion. More power to ya.
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:43 pm    Post subject: as to you. _________________ n/a
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WorldDesigner Joined: 08 Jun 2008 Posts: 38	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: djswan wrote: I haven't had my coffee yet to study this further. I need coffee or do I? Needs sound pathetic and small. I like requirements. Reading the first and last lines helps, thanks for that advise. How to make a universe. There is more than one way, but here is one. Take two events and make a pattern. You now have a two dimensions x(y), and a place for form to exist. Functions are the varibles. Form is the outcome. You need input to have outcome. Add a zenith and you get Earth, Wind and Fire. and gravity as the pull back from the zenith event and time is the markings of it's trail. Will an astro physicist please take the stage and a poet. Am I close? So who is creating the "events", chaos? Where does the original energy come from, out of nothingness? Where did the original energy needed come from? To have energy come into existence, you need other energy to create it. So who or what created the initial energy needed?
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: That for me to know and you to find out. I did, and I only share with friends. Good luck on your quest or is it test? _________________ n/a
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ArchiMotion Joined: 31 May 2008 Posts: 315	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:05 pm    Post subject: Hey djswan, those are some interesting questions. It would be nice to see your opinion on those, if you actually have one. Or, from what I understand, you are more of a poet and not actually into trying to explain things? I am somewhat of a poet as well, beyond my enjoying research and writing, as you can see.
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djswan Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 838 Location: Montana, USA	Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: What's an ArchiMotion? are you good at dancing or something? My questions are better than your questions _________________ n/a
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