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palladio Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 16	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 2:47 am    Post subject: military projection (30 / 60 axonometric view) Can anyone tell how to build a 30 / 60 axonometric with wildtools 3D cube options? It seems the sum of both angle is 89 degrees maximum. Thanks[/b]
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Alfred Scott Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 633 Location: Richmond, VA	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:59 am    Post subject: I'm afraid I don't remember the reason for the limitation. It was quite a long time ago that I did all of this. I'm guessing here, but if you click on the Scaled option, you can see what happens to the image, and I think a 30 / 60 axonometric is effectively looking straight down at the top of the cube. That means the drawing for the top of the 'building' would just be a rotated orthogonal drawing, and the sides of the 'building' would not show at all because they would be scaled down to a single line. Stupid in Richmond, Alfred
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palladio Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 16	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 9:34 am    Post subject: Alfred Scott wrote: I'm guessing here, but if you click on the Scaled option, you can see what happens to the image, and I think a 30 / 60 axonometric is effectively looking straight down at the top of the cube. That means the drawing for the top of the 'building' would just be a rotated orthogonal drawing, and the sides of the 'building' would not show at all because they would be scaled down to a single line. The floor plan is just rotated 45° or 30° so you can see 2 sides of the cube The scale is the same for x, y and z. It's mostly used in architecture. Quite effective since the perpendicular lines on the floor plan remain perpendicular in the projection. I wonder where that limitation comes from. (the sum of angles < 90°)
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Kevin Site Admin Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 1091 Location: Eugene, Oregon	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 9:52 am    Post subject: The classic architectural 30/60/90 axonometric projection used in architecture effectively involves a shear transformation of the vertical axis from the original modeling space, but just a rotation in the horizontal planes. Seems to me the tradition of using this particular drawing type comes partly from its utility for communication, and partly from the simplicity of drawing it using traditional architectural drafting tools. But that's another story...
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JohnMorse Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 291 Location: Birmingham, AL	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 10:19 am    Post subject: I'm all for removing limitations when they are based on guesses about what people will probably never want to do -- because they just might. For drawing at this projection, WT 3-D is not really needed, though because you're using the normal snap angles and full lengths. If you want to reorient a plan drawing to serve as a base for a projected view, you can just use the normal rotate tool, right? Am I missing something?
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palladio Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 16	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: JohnMorse wrote: I'm all for removing limitations when they are based on guesses about what people will probably never want to do -- because they just might. For drawing at this projection, WT 3-D is not really needed, though because you're using the normal snap angles and full lengths. If you want to reorient a plan drawing to serve as a base for a projected view, you can just use the normal rotate tool, right? I do agree with your first statement. As far as the second one is concerned, you still need the WT 3D tools to shear the details on the vertical planes. But yes you're right it can still be done without Wildtools, the other axonometrics also. It's just slower.
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Kevin Site Admin Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 1091 Location: Eugene, Oregon	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 11:25 am    Post subject: Quote: I'm all for removing limitations when they are based on guesses about what people will probably never want to do... BTW, under the classic mathemathical approach to figuring viewing angles in 3D, the manipulation of a viewing cube can become unstable as the input value approaches 90 degrees. And if the inputs are allowed to go higher than 90 degrees ('over the top' of the viewing sphere) then things really get weird. Given Alfred's broad sensitivity to user needs, those suggest a more likely reason for a historical 89 degree limitation than a guess about what people need. ((Eschewing assumptions can help in both directions...))
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philloheed Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 139 Location: Somerville, MA	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 3:36 pm    Post subject: [quote="palladio"] JohnMorse wrote: As far as the second one is concerned, you still need the WT 3D tools to shear the details on the vertical planes. But yes you're right it can still be done without Wildtools, the other axonometrics also. It's just slower. There are two points that come to mind on this: a) The WT Shear Points and PowerCADD Shear commands can be used to assist the creation of the axon you want to make -- once you make a simple "cage" of basic snap points to regulate your sheared objects. b) Drawing true perspectives, using the WT Perspective Tools, especially the BlockOut and Perspective Camera Tools (when going back and forth from orthogonal parts) is actually easier and quicker than using axon drawings. The "full monty" perspective three-point mode not only creates accurate pictures -- it is in turn faster and easier to "grock" than one or two point! I think that many people avoid working in perspective because it is seen as complex and hard to understand. In programs like FormZ, StudioMax, SketchUp! and Design Workshop it requires creating entire models, and detail is limited unless you're willing to spend lots of time and computational horsepower on it. WT Perspective Tools is the happy medium. They allow one to generate a desired view using only the directly relevant source plans and elevations. One may work rapidly back and forth from orthogonal to perspective, developing whatever detail may be desired. Give it a try... _________________ Phil Loheed
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Bill Stanley Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 315	Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Memory is that the math starts falling apart approaching 90 degrees and the values start approaching infinity. Bill Stanley
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Alfred Scott Joined: 15 Apr 2004 Posts: 633 Location: Richmond, VA	Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:11 pm    Post subject: Okay, the limitation is caused by axonometic scaling. I've changed it so it will let you do 30/60 axons or similar when axonometric scaling is turned off. When you turn axonometric on, it then applies the limitation of 89 degree on the top plane. Look for this change in a future updated version. Alfred
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palladio Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 16	Posted: Sun May 09, 2004 2:15 am    Post subject: Alfred Scott wrote: Okay, the limitation is caused by axonometic scaling. I've changed it so it will let you do 30/60 axons or similar when axonometric scaling is turned off. When you turn axonometric on, it then applies the limitation of 89 degree on the top plane. Look for this change in a future updated version. I'm impressed. Thanks
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