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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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 Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yes RH, go to the web link and see for yourself: "No Scientists are named in that group discussing their topic "Meeting the Climate Changes""...as referring to this specific group.
Yes there are those with computer data that is flawed, claiming to be scientists. But again, I will state it here: show me the one single piece of empirical evidence out there that anything that mankind is doing on the face of this globe is leading to any warming of the Earth's atmosphere? I dare you try. |
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Richard Haut
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Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1099
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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A leading article from today's "Independent" newspaper:
Countdown to global catastrophe
Climate change: report warns point of no return may be reached in 10 years, leading to droughts, agricultural failure and water shortages
By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
24 January 2005
The global warming danger threshold for the world is clearly marked for the first time in an international report to be published tomorrow - and the bad news is, the world has nearly reached it already.
The countdown to climate-change catastrophe is spelt out by a task force of senior politicians, business leaders and academics from around the world - and it is remarkably brief. In as little as 10 years, or even less, their report indicates, the point of no return with global warming may have been reached.
The report, Meeting The Climate Challenge, is aimed at policymakers in every country, from national leaders down. It has been timed to coincide with Tony Blair's promised efforts to advance climate change policy in 2005 as chairman of both the G8 group of rich countries and the European Union.
And it breaks new ground by putting a figure - for the first time in such a high-level document - on the danger point of global warming, that is, the temperature rise beyond which the world would be irretrievably committed to disastrous changes. These could include widespread agricultural failure, water shortages and major droughts, increased disease, sea-level rise and the death of forests - with the added possibility of abrupt catastrophic events such as "runaway" global warming, the melting of the Greenland ice sheet, or the switching-off of the Gulf Stream.
The report says this point will be two degrees centigrade above the average world temperature prevailing in 1750 before the industrial revolution, when human activities - mainly the production of waste gases such as carbon dioxide (CO2), which retain the sun's heat in the atmosphere - first started to affect the climate. But it points out that global average temperature has already risen by 0.8 degrees since then, with more rises already in the pipeline - so the world has little more than a single degree of temperature latitude before the crucial point is reached.
More ominously still, it assesses the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere after which the two-degree rise will become inevitable, and says it will be 400 parts per million by volume (ppm) of CO2.
The current level is 379ppm, and rising by more than 2ppm annually - so it is likely that the vital 400ppm threshold will be crossed in just 10 years' time, or even less (although the two-degree temperature rise might take longer to come into effect).
"There is an ecological timebomb ticking away," said Stephen Byers, the former transport secretary, who co-chaired the task force that produced the report with the US Republican senator Olympia Snowe. It was assembled by the Institute for Public Policy Research in the UK, the Centre for American Progress in the US, and The Australia Institute.The group's chief scientific adviser is Dr Rakendra Pachauri, chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.
The report urges all the G8 countries to agree to generate a quarter of their electricity from renewable sources by 2025, and to double their research spending on low-carbon energy technologies by 2010. It also calls on the G8 to form a climate group with leading developing nations such as India and China, which have big and growing CO2 emissions.
"What this underscores is that it's what we invest in now and in the next 20 years that will deliver a stable climate, not what we do in the middle of the century or later," said Tom Burke, a former government adviser on green issues who now advises business.
The report starkly spells out the likely consequences of exceeding the threshold. "Beyond the 2 degrees C level, the risks to human societies and ecosystems grow significantly," it says.
"It is likely, for example, that average-temperature increases larger than this will entail substantial agricultural losses, greatly increased numbers of people at risk of water shortages, and widespread adverse health impacts. [They] could also imperil a very high proportion of the world's coral reefs and cause irreversible damage to important terrestrial ecosystems, including the Amazon rainforest."
It goes on: "Above the 2 degrees level, the risks of abrupt, accelerated, or runaway climate change also increase. The possibilities include reaching climatic tipping points leading, for example, to the loss of the West Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets (which, between them, could raise sea level more than 10 metres over the space of a few centuries), the shutdown of the thermohaline ocean circulation (and, with it, the Gulf Stream), and the transformation of the planet's forests and soils from a net sink of carbon to a net source of carbon."
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Yes thats the report I am referring to and as you can see we have 10 years, to clean our act up...or all the forrests will be extinct among other man made disasterous phenomena...thank God the United States didn't go along with the disastrous Kyoto treaty which goes into effect next month. Are we going to believe:
| Quote: | | a task force of senior politicians, business leaders and academics from around the world |
Show me some data I can sink my teeth into...this report summary you posted is truely laughable! I guess we can all prepare to not pay off our personal debts and home mortgages with this scenario forthcoming  |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1099
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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you find increased CO2 emissions funny? find your own data - I am hardly going to consider the opinion of the likes of you against a journal of the status of Nature.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Every time I turn around there is a new and incredible story out there about our environment...and none of it is backed up with any scientific data.
The difference with this story is that they're not really calling it "global warming" any more. Now the magic buzz words are "climate change." Why the change? Because more and more people are coming to understand that there is not one single piece of empirical evidence out there that anything that mankind is doing on the face of this globe is leading to any warming of the Earth's atmosphere. We may well be going through a period where the Earth is warming up a degree or two; but we're going through this period at the very same time that the Sun has shown increased activity. So once again, to put it into terms that RH and SDR could understand ... Sun gets hotter, Earth gets hotter. It's been happening since the dinosaurs....hence the ice melts, just as it has been melting on Mars...and when the water evaporates into the atmosphere, we will continue to have rain in excessive amounts over may parts of the world...and the cycle will continue on and on and on.... |
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SDR
millennium club
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Isn't the subtext of this "discussion" the matter of whether we ARE or are NOT willing to acknowledge mankind's effects on the natural world: a rapidly-growing population, the equally-rapid disappearance of animal species, the deteriorating quantity of the oceanic foodsource, the finite nature of mineral resources, including petroleum, etc, etc.? Donald's tone of argument is consistent with that which seeks to deny the simple reality, understandable by any grade-schooler, that the shelves we are emptying, at a steadily increasing rate, are not being re-stocked by anyone or anything, and that this is not a fact that we can either ignore nor blame "others" for; it is just the reality we find around us.
If we can accept this as the (obvious) reality, we can make plans for change in our global "lifestyle" and move to a more sustainable relationship with the planet. If we can only hold our hands over our eyes and ears and shout "No! Shut up! It's not happening!", then we'll have only ourselves to blame for the descent into an uglier and uglier future reality. Individually and collectively, those are the choices we will make. The past two hundred years of man's existence have changed the way we relate to our environment, forever; it was probably an inevitable development, and we are approaching an interesting fork in the road. No, there's no-one to be "blamed" for the present state of affairs: but to pretend that the situation is anything other than what it is, will prevent us from solving the next set of problems we face.
Rising solar temperature doesn't account for the recorded and recognized hole in the ozone mantle; the release into the atmosphere of hundreds of tons of certain gasses and particulates, daily, does. Change is difficult; it's normal to resist it, initially. Our leaders will lead, or they will follow. Are we to act as adults, or as children? Time will tell.
SDR |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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And another rhetorical - dumb slur -reply without showing the any single piece of evidence that man has caused the earths atmosphere to go into a warming tailspin...amazing. I guess we will have to wait this one out past the Kyoto Treaty to truely find out where if any that it exists?
BTW, the City of San Francisco is considering taxing you SDR and your fellow shoppers 17 cents for every grocery bag thats used. You know the environmentalists won't stop there....the true goal for most so-called "environmentalists" is the destruction of capitalism. Today, grocery bags. Tomorrow
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=35683 |
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SDR
millennium club
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Dear, dear -- capitalism threatened with extinction? I don't think so. A self-sustaining organism, capable of exterminating any and all threats to its existence, encouraged rather than restrained by the governments it buys. . .threatened? By what, "sticks and stones"? Better to worry about something else!
A piece in today's NY Times on the study of the Antarctic ice mantle-- no mention of possible causes, just some prediction of potential results. . .
www.nytimes.com/2005/01/25/science/earth/25ice.html? |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, and as a reminder from the start of all this:
Once the Johnny Carson tributes subside, get ready for full-scale media indoctrination about the dangers of global warming ... and remember the true goal here, to damage or cripple the United States economically...I guess its started in the NYT |
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SDR
millennium club
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 1640
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Speaking of man-made alterations of the natural environment, and subsequent unintended consequences, the press release below below is the source of a story in today's Times. . .
www.georgianbay.ca/press_release_Jan24.htm
Do you suppose it's a Commie plot. . .?
SDR |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Let me see if I understand you on this....erosion, dredging and strip mining is a result of lake levels dropping....that I read is the result of this severe lake level drop. Now back to the post challenge at hand and again for those attending the government schools SDR has attended, the word is "Global Warming" and the task is to show one single piece of empirical evidence out there that anything that mankind is doing on the face of this globe is leading to any warming of the Earth's atmosphere.
Its not a commie plot, its the full-scale media indoctrination about the dangers of global warming ... and remember the true goal here, to damage or cripple the United States economically |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1099
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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you argue just like a crooked developer who couldn't care less about safety standards, saying that architects are determined to ruin him by their nonsense about designing decent buildings.
'prove to me that it is unsafe', 'show me the evidence that if we don't put in extra bracing, fire protection, etc. that the building will be a danger to anybody', 'I don't want an over-designed building'........
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| No comment about your "crooked developer clients"? I have never experienced having a client who didn't want to build by the Building Code...on the other hand, I never have heard so many shout so much about how the sky has been falling, as I have over the past 15 years with the "global warming" burnaholeinyouratmosphere crowd....while the sun scientist experts continue to show how we have been experiencing warming of our atmosphere for hundreds, no thousands of years....way before the Suburban made its way across the assembly line |
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Richard Haut
millennium club
Joined: 18 Apr 2004
Posts: 1099
Location: Nice, France
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:04 am Post subject: |
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you've never met a client who wanted to bend the regulations ? you have had a sheltered life.
the long term warming and cooling cycles of the earth are perfectly well known and recorded.
unfortunately what is happening now is measured in decades not tens or hundreds of millenia.
you don't bother about global warming and think that holes in the ozone layer are just freaky hysteria ? so don't use sun block.
a bit like eating Aspartame.
_________________
Richard Haut has worked with the architectural profession for over 25 years and produces the weekly Richard Haut's Competitions, which has given architects details of many thousands of projects for which they can apply across Britain and Europe. |
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Donald
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 493
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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RH, never experienced having a client.....does not =
| Quote: | | ....never met a client... |
And thus far we've come a long way and have gone through two pages in the post lineup here over this past month, and all we can come up with in the "single piece of emperical evidence" category of mankind raising the earths surface temperatures is:
A. To use or not to use sun block 
B. Extra bracings and fire protection in buildings 
C. Erosion, dredging and strip mining along the Great Lakes 
D. A self-sustaining organism, capable of exterminating any and all threats to its existence
E. The NYTimes study of the ice mantles 
F. Grocery Bags in SF 
G. The "ignore nor blame others for; it is just the reality" Game 
H. The "Independent" newspaper's "Countdown to global catastrophe" scare tactics which includes: "runaway" global warming, the melting of the Greenland ice sheet, or the switching-off of the Gulf Stream. 
I. And to wrap it all up, a 200-page dossier ....showing that the case being fabricated against Iran by America is a fake 
I'll be more optomistic about this and give the "single piece of emperical evidence challenge" another month...and I'll bet, one person out there in DCF land may just come in with the winning entry. |
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